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Guest Message by DevFuse

Thoughts needed on this topic


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14 replies to this topic

#1 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 09:11 AM

Howdy all,

Here is something we should look at this year.  (All SASS TG's).

So I put it out for discussion here.  In light of the fact that SASS has established  a rule dictating that any Black Powder shooter must shoot loads of at least 15 grains, or 1cc of black to produce enough smoke to be in the Black Powder catigory------Should SASS now create a penalty for not following those guidelines.

AS it stands now--we have the 1cc rule---but no penalty to go with it.

Therefore, I ask you if you think there should be a penalty for breaking this rule?

If so, what should that penalty be.

This item is sure to come up at the SASS convention, for it comes up at many of the big shoots. Shooters want to know what to do incase this happens. What do you think?

#2 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 10:34 AM

Tex,
Look at the book again.  Shooting out of class, stage dq.  Two stage dqs= match dq.

If the powder does not meet class standards, you have been punished.  No need for another new rule.
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#3 dd

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:47 PM

Amen!!
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#4 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 05:41 PM

Denny, and Dice,

With all rdue respect---I TOTALLY DISAGREE.

This rule does not involve Shooting out of Class! Nor, in all honesty, will any big shoot, Match Director, or Range master, SDQ any shooter who might accidentally grab a smokeless round and fire it during a big match.

The rule you state was made long before the Smoke rule, and is in fact focused on shooters who sign up to shoot duelist and then shoot traditional. It was created long before this issue ever surfaced.

So far I have conversed with over a Dozen Range Masters(STATE or Above), and twice that in Match directors. NOne hold your view. Also have talked with some of the Wild Bunch, and they also do not agree with you.

In this one instance, SASS has created a rule that is NOT COVERED BY ANY CURRENT RULE! This issue will appear at the SASS convention. Now the question is, what comes next?

Some favor making the shooter who fails to meet the standard moving into a none Black Powder catigory, depending on the style of shooting. Others favor handing out a proceedural for each stage shoot with the none conforming loads. NONe favor dq's.

Therefor, Again I ask, what is a fair penality for this infraction

#5 Big Grit

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:36 PM

Seems to me the rule was created for someone not shooting in "Spirit of the Game", Therefore a 30 second  spirit of the game penalty might be appropriate. Big Grit

#6 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 07:14 PM

Gents,

After reading your posts, I went back and hit the books. Here are the problems I uncovered.

If the shooter, in a BP category, is indeed using BP(or a substitute), they are not, by rule defination, shooting outside the category. This eliminates any SDQ penalty.

Now, as to a Spirit of the Game--that may be possible, but it's to open to interpertation!

Here is what I did find that May (and only may) apply here:

Under 10 Second Penalties

*Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the categogy in which a shooter is competeing.
(Range Ops. page 18)

Still, this was not written for this instance, though it may still apply. I still feel that a clarifacation is in order for this offence.

#7 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:16 AM

Then we have different opinions.  Send it in for the agenda and let everyone argue, then vote.
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#8 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:12 AM

Dice,

I already did, that's why I started this topic.

It is always more productive to examine an issue while there is plenty of time to find the best possible solution, in accordence with the rules. Any rush to judgement usually creates a poor rule, which must be changed latter. Taking the time to examine a problem, and search out the fairest solution has advantages.

Most of this started with Tex's artical in the July Chronical, where he states---" shooting out of Category, with weapons not adhereing to the covenants, or illegal loads, should result in a DQ"

Now,this is easy to say, but not really practical. Some shooter, form who knows where, takes time off of work, spends hard earned money for hotel reservations, food, Match expences and basically takes vacation time to attend--oh lets use EOT for instance.  Anyone can see that there are major expences involved.

Now, they somehow, accidentally --and unknowingly, make a few rounds that do not smoke enough. It can happen so easily---!  Using a hard line approach, we say--Screw you, your vacations over!  Sound slightly draconian to you, for it sure does to me!

There is nothing wrong in setting a standard, the trouble exists in not--Having A SET--consistant, Way of handeling the rare situation where the standard is broken.  When the TG's voted this in, they made it more of a prevention idea. But, as time has passed, more and more big shoots are asking--ok, what do we do IF this Occures?  And, unfortunately, the current answers seem to be all over the board, From DQ, to 10 second penalty, to change in shooting Category. Trouble is, as the rules stand now, only the 10 second penalty is currently written into existing rules.

Thus, my proposal to SASS for the next TG convention

#9 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 08:27 AM

Tex,
I saw where you posted this on the SASS RO Instructor (Black Badge) site.  As well as your response.

You say this started with: copied from your last post-
Most of this started with Tex's artical in the July Chronical, where he states---" shooting out of Category, with weapons not adhereing to the covenants, or illegal loads, should result in a DQ"

OK, he is a member of the Wild Bunch, he goes to more big matches than any of us, and he has been doing this a lot longer than any of us.  
Is it possible he could be right??!!  

I agree if it happens once in a match, then it could have been a mistake.  But if it keeps happening on stage after stage, there is a problem.  If it happens once, they have one stage DQ, we have all had them.  You just move on.  If it keeps happening, maybe he is gaming, maybe he is not very responsible with his reloading process.  

Either way, he learns a valuable lesson, and hopefully learns from his mistakes.  

OR, he learns he can get by with it, and keeps shooting with the ROs he knows won't make the call, there fore giving him a competitive advantage (gamer) over other shooters in the match.

Think about it.  My response remains the same.
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#10 Shotgun Bandit

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 01:34 PM

JEEZ you guys............So what yer sayin is .......if some poor slob gets 1 smokeless round mixed in with his BP rounds and fires it he gets a SDQ. :diablo:  Thats way way to harsh a penalty for a brain fart :oops:  in my humble opinion. :thumbdown:     Bandit

#11 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 04:21 PM

Dice,

Here is Exactly why this item needs not only clarification, but also a penality written into the rules for just this rule.

AS I have stated, Tex, in his article, thinks this should be a SDQ--and I ask you to remember that TEx was a driving force in creating this rule.

Yet Snakebie and SAckett--who wrote the rule, believe that the rule only exists to force an offender to go get different Black Powder loads and that NO penalty is needed at all

While Pale Wolf Burnell, who is one of the lead Black Badgers believes that only a 10 sec penalty is warrented for the offence.

THree very differnt views on one very vague rule!  And all those mentioned are very high up in the SASS orginazation. Who's right?

Yet, I can give you even a better reason to say, hey, lets get this fixed!

Scene one---Some shooter saves his money to attend a really big match. Lets say EOT. He goes thru the trouble of getting the time off of work, he spends money on transportation, Match FEEs, hotel reservations, and any number of things that going to a big match costs. Next, he is also taking vacation time to--go and have fun! (Remember--we're in the entertainment business)  Just so happens this fella shoots Black.

Now, his fist stage runs real smooth, no truble. But on his second stage, out of 24 shoots, somehow he has mixed into his rounds one smokeless round. Not intentionally, not to gain an advantage, but just one of those things.  OK--what's the call? Does this poor fella deserve a SDQ?  Worse, and most real, he's a thousand miles from home and can't just--GO GET DIFFERENT AMMO!  Now, everything goes great for him on the next two stages, but on NUMBER 5--he has somehow mixed in one smokeless round for the shotgun.

That's now 2 SDQ's=Match DQ!----is that what you think is fair. The poor fella just made two simple mistakes, neither of which he used to try and gain a competitive advantage--but your telling him--screw your vacation all the same!

Scene Two-----Some crazy shooter really does not care about winning, or even where he places.....He's here just to have fun. As part of his fun, he likes to load up shells that do odd things.(shoot out feathers--throw off streamers, cover the range in odd colored smoke---sound like anyone you know.) It has taken this shooter a few years to perfect this technique. And, as the case may be, he has learned that , for this show to work, the power factor must be extremely low. The crazy fella also shoots Black Powder, and perferes that category. Now, in playing for the posse, he is also taking may extra shoots with the shotgun, for to do what he does he can't add shot.

What this equates to, is he is already adding time to the stages he choses to do this at. He also, is NOT MAKING ENOUGH SMOKE !   So, lets DQ him as well! If that's the Standard, you are punishing a shooter who is only trying to MAKE HIS POSSE LAUGH!

Lately, SASS has been begging, lets put some FUN back into what we do! Who is going to spend that much money, and then except a DQ for adding FUN!  NO exceptions are made for rules, even when they are harmless or simple mistakes. How hard shall we be on both these shooters?

More to the point--since when has Justice ever been as simple as a rule?

#12 Big Grit

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 04:37 AM

I think your you're getting this way out of porportion. All there looking for is someone to make a resonable effort to stay within catagory guidlines. How long has it been since anyone checked a shooters style against htheir scoresheet to see they're shooting in the correct category? Big Grit

#13 Devereaux

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 06:38 AM

Grit makes a good point. So does Dice. Trouble with you, Tex, is that you are a social engineer. Hate to label you with the "L" label, but most of your contentions are in that category.

Here on the regular dogpile, most people probably wouldn't notice that there was a smokeless round in with the rest of the black. And if you shot 4 out of 5 blacks, there ought to be enough smoke to satisfy anyone. Way back, the rule was because people were shooting "black" but not making any smoke. If there was a reaction, it would probably be to kid the person, as we seem to do with most brain farts.

Now, if you postulate EOT, THAT is an altogether different story. That is a major match, and if you decide to use your "vacation" to shoot that, you ought to be careful enough to SEE to it that you don't have any smokeless in with your black. It's called "preparation". Another word for it would be "responsibility". It's up to you to follow the rules. They aren't all that hard. If you are postulating a total newbie goes to EOT and shoots black, then maybe as Dice says a SDQ would be a good learning experience. You don't have any inherent RIGHT to shoot. You have an opportunity, and it requires that you exercise responsibility. Take the exact same scenerio and instead of the issue of black, how about the shooter goes out the night before and ties on a really big one - and shows up woozy. ?Don't you think he ought to be sanctioned, even if he DID drive a billion miles to come. You can't shoot impared, and there shouldn't be any excuses. I am sorry he is impared, but these are the rules on that subject. Similar condition here with regard to black.
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#14 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 07:37 AM

Dev,

Not only will people notice one smokeless out of five, they already have noticed this. I had to rule on scene one at the Ruckus. Do you have any idea how hard it is to rule on something when there is NO RULE TO ENFORCE?  (There is only a Standard smoke requirement---not a penalty for failure.)

Grit,

You may find this intresting. This past year at EOT (I did not chose that shoot for nothing) Tex ran around and challenged every shooter in Black Category classes who was shooting 32's and 38's. (This is from Snakebite's eye wittness account)  What penalty is there to enforce, even if they failed the challenge. Furthur, in the origional draft of this rule, there was an enforcement clause, which got deleted. To bad, it was, and is still needed.

And, as for shooters who were doing this before the rule came into existance---sorry--no---not shooters--just one shooter--once!

What everyone seems to overlook here, is human nature. There are Rule Nazi's in this game, and they love to challenge other shooters if they feel they can gain something by doing so.  (Even when that something is nothing more then throwing the other fella off his game. I know this because I've seen it in action.

In short, don't DEMAND the Match Director inforce a rule and then give him nothing to enforce it with!

#15 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 07:40 AM

Let me add that this is a good descussion of the facts. Which is why I started this thread in the first place.

To give everyone time to decide wqhere they stand on the issue. For it will be coming up at the TG meeting at the SASS Convention




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