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18 replies to this topic

#1 Longtooth

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:38 AM

What's the call.

Pistol targets in front of the rifle targets. Shooter starts the stage. Rifle first ten rounds two sweeps. In shooting the rifle targets he accidently hits a pistol target. Is it a miss or a procedual or both?

  I stated at the time that it is only a miss and not a procedual. Was voted down and the shooter was given a miss and a procedual.

   My argument at the time was that the new rules state that a miss cannot cause a procedual.  Am i right or wrong. Help!!!! :crazy:  :crazy:

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#2 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 06:09 AM

Longtooth,

I would tend to favor your view. A miss is not wupose to cause a P. Hiwever, there is a rule that says shooting the wring type of target for the weapon used is a P.

This brings into play common sense, did the shooter miss hugh, low, right or left and thus hit the wrong type of targey? Ub an instant like this, you have to be there to really see what has happened.

In most cases I'd rely on "The benifit of the Doubt goes to the shooter."

#3 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:13 AM

Can't have double jeapordy, according to the rule book.  They hit a target, there fore not a miss, but it was the wrong target for that gun, so it is just a P.
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#4 Ugly

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:54 AM

I would tend to concur with "Dice"; you can't have a double jeopardy; no misses, a "P" for hitting the wrong target.
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#5 dd

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:29 AM

I also concur with Dice.
~dd~

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#6 Longtooth

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:41 PM

I must belabor this some more.  If you will go to the flow chart on the Sass website it shows a different message than what I'm hearing from my constituents.

I also went on the forum and noticed a similar situation using a rifle and a shotgun and the consenus was a miss but no procedual.  

I must say that the shooters handbook is lacking in information except when generalizations are needed.  Oh well!!!! let's hear some feed-back. This is driving me  :crazy:  :crazy:

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#7 Wrangler Rich

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:40 PM

:usabig:


Shooter starts the stage. Rifle first ten rounds two sweeps. In shooting the rifle targets he accidently hits a pistol target. Is it a miss or a procedual or both?




According to the flow chart that we are to use until it is revised:

Flow Chart:  Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets?  Yes or No.

Answer:  NO

Flow Chart:  Assess  Miss(es)

Flow Chart:  Were the targets engaged in a correct order except for the miss (misses)? Yes or No.

Answer:  No

Flow Chart:  Assess Procedure



The Flow chart then tells us that this inadvertant shot cost the shooter 15 seconds.


We don't have to agree with it, but that is the way it should be done to comply with the flow chart.
It's not like it used to be, but it'll do.

#8 Jailbird

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:41 PM

Howdy,
                              Guess I need a refresher on ROing!!!!!!!!              I would give a "Miss" for NOT hitting the rifle target --------- never mind it hit the pistol target --- and no"P"  :oops:


                                        Just my 2 cents ----- Jailbird

#9 Jailbird

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:43 PM

FLOW CHART ????          Where do ya get a Flow Chart ???       I don't like no steenking Flow Chart !!!!!!!!!!!!!   LOL

#10 Ugly

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:47 PM

I still say, and this depends on the target placement, that maybe the shooter is a really bad shot and he shot at the proper target but missed it so badly that he hit the wrong target.  He was still addressing the proper targets; he is being penalized for not being skillful enough. A lot still has to be addressed on this.  If someone did it on purpose for an advantage, give him all the penalties possible; if it is just an error or lack of skill, that person might not be coming back.  Again, just my own 2 cents.  And yes, I know, flow chart, flow chart (I'm not getting on Wrangler Rich's case here) but, I always thought/felt that the benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter.  Let's stir the pot somemore. :diablo:

Edited by Ugly, 24 August 2006 - 05:48 PM.

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#11 dd

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 06:39 PM

Some of these little scenarios will have you up all night pulling your hair out. There always seems to be a valid argument for both interpretations.  There are many places in the SASS manuals that conflict with each other and we have to use a common sense approach. I always look to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and not pile up a bunch of penalties. This is supposed to be - at least at the local level - a fun game.

Perhaps if I had been there and saw what happened, I might feel different but with the limited information given I probably would not have gone more than a P or maybe a miss but not both.
~dd~

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#12 Mockingbird

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:05 PM

View Postlongtooth, on Aug 24 2006, 05:38 AM, said:

he accidently hits a pistol target.

Miss only.  He missed his intended target, the hit on the wrong type of target was the result of nothing more than target placement.

I disagree with the above application of the flow chart, no offense Rich, but the targets were "engaged" in the correct order, they simply were not "hit" in the correct order.

#13 Longtooth

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:25 PM

I think the answer to the question is that the targets were hit in the correct order except for the miss and that being the case the shooter should have been given a miss and not a procedual.

These are the kind of topics that make us more proficient when asked to make an opinion. Great feedback. I have more but that will come later. :diablo:

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#14 Wrangler Rich

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 05:44 AM

:usabig:

Now that we have that solved, :diablo:

I would give him a miss and move on. :D   Why you ask?

Because I was standing behind him at the shot and saw him pull the shot.  He was aiming at the correct target but the heavy trigger pull caused him to pull and hit the wrong target. :good:

Next shooter.

Edited by Wrangler Rich, 25 August 2006 - 05:46 AM.

It's not like it used to be, but it'll do.

#15 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 08:36 AM

This issue was fought very hard at the 2003 TG Summit, no double jeapordy.

The one thing I wish SASS would correct reflects on Denny's statement that some things in the RO courses conflict with each other.  This is one of those issues.  Depends on where you look, rule book, RO course or flow chart.  One says a miss, one says a P, neither one says both.

Rich sounds like he was there and was the timer/RO, and the call was made.  It's like the old saying, "You just had to be there!"

Move on.
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#16 dd

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 08:55 AM

Yes, being there and watching it makes all the difference in the world!
~dd~

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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson
Guns have only two enemies - rust and politicians.

1911........Much faster than 911

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#17 Longtooth

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 09:19 AM

As I stated earlier I was at Beloit when situation happen. I fought for only a miss but was shut down. Oh well!!!  On to the next case. =@  =@

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#18 Wrangler Rich

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:15 AM

:usabig:

I wasn't at the timer in the incident referred to by Longtooth, But I have had similar. :D
It's not like it used to be, but it'll do.

#19 Longtooth

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 02:45 PM

Wrangler Rich,

      I like this kind of feedback such as you do I'm sure. Keeps us on our toes. In fact I still like to go to the RO1 and 2 courses. You keep refreshed.  :good:

       See ya at the next bend in the trail.  :usabig:
                                                                    
                                                              Longtooth :yahoo:

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