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Guest Message by DevFuse

The Hot issue for 2007


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22 replies to this topic

Poll: Where do you stand on:

Should SASS re-establish a floor level fps standard Yes or No

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#1 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 09:57 AM

Howdy Pards and Pardette's.

As many of you may  already Know, the hot issue for the year is going to be about bringing back the base line fpe, or a power factor that all SASS shooters must meet. Currently, it is up for discussion all year long for the TG's to look at, and maybe find, some sort of solution to the current, --How low can things go---attitude of some shooters.

Before WE ourselve weigh in on the topic, let me give you some of the information I've recieved on this so far.  AS of now, anyone going to WR, Mule Camp, EOT, or any of the other big matches, you are GOING to encounter Knock Downs calibrated for 38's using a 158 gr. bullet.  Also, as most of you have read in the Chronical, Tex is advocating an upgrade in shooters loads.  Tex is not alone amoung the Wild Bunch in believing this is a needed change.

One decision the Wild Bunch has already made is that all SASS TG's bring this topic up to their clubs, and any members of SASS who will be willing to give us their thoughts on the matter. Thus, this post.  Now as many of you know, SASS once had a base standard of 650fps as the low end for all loads. That was dropped about 5 years ago.

One of the reason's it is being concidered for re-instatement is over safety. There are instances in the last couple of years where bullets Have been stacked up in a pistol barrel, by fast shooters, before the T/O can even stop the shooter. Also, if any of you read any shooting Magazines, you have most likely seen comments on our, No Recoil shooting, Few (if any) are in favor of it.  SASS HQ has seen them, and soes not like the bad press as it where.

So folks, what do you think? Have you and comments on this issue? Any ideas?  I hope to hear form you all.

Thanks
Tex Hewitt

#2 Wrangler Rich

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 03:06 PM

:usabig:

Tex,

As you may have figured out your poll doesn't allow a yes or no answer.  Maybe DD can help set this up for ya.

My dos centavos,  

No and No  

It is all ready in the handbook that knock downs may be encountered, and they are to be calibrated to 158 gr / 850/sec 38's.
My take is that if a shooter chooses to shoot less, and a knockdown is encountered, they will just load "up" for that stage.  

I don't think a min velocity is enforceable for the same reasons stated above.  So in that vein, I think that trying to regulate loads is going to be a PITA.

Let the Mouse Pharters play their game, and we'll play ours.  In the end, nobody is going to win that new Caddy. :rolleyes:  


Now, if ya can figure out the fun factor........


WR

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#3 Kidd Casey

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 07:16 PM

THANK YOU DEVEREAUX, I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER.PERSONALY, I HATE ALL THE NEEDLESS POLITICS THAT GET IN THE WAY OF EVERYTHING WE DO THESE DAYS. LET'S ALL JUST HAVE SOME FUN.    K.C.   :cowboy1:
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#4 Lawman Wolf

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 08:14 PM

I shoot the hot stuff,, a lot,, for the real life situations as Dev mentioned above. So I get tired of getting beat up or beating up the weapons, although  there, it is necessary, because the threat needs to be stopped fast, very fast.  I will and have been a gamer in those situations also, I will take every advantage,every tactical  detail, any legally acceptable means to conlcude the situation at hand,  so that my guys/gals, the victims and I  go home to hug their wives and kids.

For my recreational gamer style  shooting I enjoy backing off a little, relaxing,talking with the folks that come to have fun but yet still  shoot as fast as I can, against myself. I also have a young buck and a Mrs who like the easier loads and with all the reloading I have to do, well you get the picture.  If there are those that want the hot stuff then by all means go for it. That's why there is classic cowboy as well as other classes and if the TG's want to make another class where you are required to have your ammo chrono-ed at 1000 fps I say go for it. Heck I might even join ya sometime,,,,,, but not right now as Im having to much fun shooting with my family.

I hoped I would get my son involved in this sport and am delighted to say it has happened, now I need to keep his interest. I never  ever figured the Mrs would get involved but I'm thrilled to say she is in for the long haul. What more could I ask for,,,? maybe to just leave well enough alone.

In closing I must say this is one of the most unique sports I have had the pleasure of playing and certainly with some of the nicest people you could ever meet. It will be  a shame if it is over regulated like so many others, because then, like so many others we will have to go find a different game to play.
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#5 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 10:35 AM

Thanks for the replies. Opions noted.

Dang but I wish I had not screwed up that darn poll!  Numbers would be very helpful at the next TG meeting. This trend of really low loads does not seem to be effecting our local shoots, and I even doubt it's even in our neck of the woods. Yet it must be happening somewhere, hence all the hub-bub!

I hope to hear from more of the posse, even if you just all say the exact samre thing. The more voices we TG's hear, the better we can speak for those we represent.

Thanks again
Tex Hewitt

#6 grandpa sixguns

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 11:15 AM

View PostTex Hewitt, on Feb 25 2007, 10:35 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies. Opions noted.

Dang but I wish I had not screwed up that darn poll!  Numbers would be very helpful at the next TG meeting. This trend of really low loads does not seem to be effecting our local shoots, and I even doubt it's even in our neck of the woods. Yet it must be happening somewhere, hence all the hub-bub!

I hope to hear from more of the posse, even if you just all say the exact samre thing. The more voices we TG's hear, the better we can speak for those we represent.

Thanks again
Tex Hewitt
  

I don't like the thought of having more rules. Loreedarlin and I just go for fun and to be with the folks. We do have a problem when its our turn to spot for these pards. Guess we are just getting old but if I don't see the plate move or hear the hit we have to call it a miss. Might be something to think about.

                                                                        Grandpa Sixguns

#7 Push the Button Wyatt

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 01:49 PM

I concur with Devereaux and Wolf,what more needs to be said.I remember a couple of years ago when "Dry Fire" had an operation and he didn't want to fire his shot gun,so he picked up his shot gun ,pointed it down range and called out "Bang Bang".That reminded me of the days when we played Cowboys and indian .What fun that was.I think the young kids now days are missing out on those good times.Me i kind of like the loud report of big loads,but i don't mind the small stuff at all,as long as the bullet dosn't just get to the end of the barrel, and then fall to your feet.Let the games begin! :gunfighter:

#8 Saguaro Kid

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 02:12 PM

View Postgrandpa sixguns, on Feb 25 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

I don't like the thought of having more rules. Loreedarlin and I just go for fun and to be with the folks. We do have a problem when its our turn to spot for these pards. Guess we are just getting old but if I don't see the plate move or hear the hit we have to call it a miss. Might be something to think about.

                                                                        Grandpa Sixguns

Grandpa, I think you hit it on the head. If it ain't obviously a hit, it's a miss. Then the "fun" begins.

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#9 Ugly

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 02:38 PM

There is no hot issue as far as loads go; the rules state what is legal and what is not.
If you had to stand in line and chronograph your loads for your rifles and pistols you wouldn't get much shooting done and, who would be manning the chronograph all day long?
There are too many different types of guns, barrel lengths cylinder gaps etc. to contend with.
The average shooter that I have seen wouldn't be able to load his guns to the prescribed velocities that that idiot "Tex" (not Hewitt, the other Tex) is proposing.
Heck, what he says, the minimum requirements should be, the commercial loaders do not want to do on account of liabilities due to the higher pressures and all.
People who shoot too low a velocity hurt themselves 'cause folks cant't hear or see the hit and they get misses or procedurals on stages.
If you want to shoot the really heavy loads, welcome; I know some really ineffective heat rubs for the aches and pains you'll have later in life due to the beatings your joints will take.
If people can't see or hear to spot hits or misses then, don't; I usually excuse myself from that chore on account of my poor hearing; I'll R.O. or something else.
I've gone through decades of IPSC shooting and that was a part of it (chronographing for major or minor) and it was never a problem.
I only know of a couple of folks who might be shooting mouse pharts and they just hurt them selves in the scoring end; though, really light loads don't have enough "oomph" to bounce back and hit anyone as a splash-back; splash-back is mostly due to poor target placement or damaged targets in the first place.
The Wild Bunch and Tex et. al. are just grumpy now that the horse has left the barn; it's too late, people have purchased too many of the different smaller caliber guns to give them up; a lot of folks can't afford to buy new, bigger caliber guns just because a few people think that they should shoot what the old cowboys shot.  Heck, most of them hardly shot their guns in their whole life as compared to what we shoot at a single match; you can't compare what used to be in the old West to nowadays.
Where have there been instances of bullets being stacked up in the barrels? I haven't seen or heard of more than a single, squib-type bullet being in a barrel.  Does the phrase "urban legend" come to mind.
Also, if a person has such low-powered loads that there would be multiple squibs, the loads are so weak that there wouldn't be enough pressure to blow up a barrel anyways.
I'm not afraid of any knock-downs with any of my loads and I shoot .32s and .45s, I just don't have them so hot that they hurt me at the end of a day of shooting; another phrase "common sense" comes to mind there; if you are a masochist well, then, load your guns as hot as you can within safety parameters and have at it.
The rules, such as they are, are the rules and as long as people abide by them by shooting maximum or minimum loads nobody should feel that they have to complain.
Just my own 6 cents worth.

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#10 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 06:46 PM

Thanks again,

Ya'all make very good points. Much of which ,I'm sure, well get said at the next TG meeting.

Still, I'd like to here form more shooters, even if what you fell is already stated above. It's one thing to go to a GT meeting and say, here is the feed back I'm getting from a dozen shooters, and quite another to say, "Hey, heard from 100 shooters and they said this!"

Please, keep it coming.

#11 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 08:22 AM

Dev,

That would be just fine. I like short and sweet!

The thing is, everyone who can, needs to speak up. For the system to work, TG's need to hear from shooters, if possible, all shooters.

As the first TG meeting of the year for me, happens BEFORE we start up in this neck of the woods, This wire is my best chance to learn what folks think.

Tex Hewitt

#12 dd

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 09:07 AM

Tex,

I don't know where you are getting your information, but I have access to the same sources you do and, as you well know, there is NOTHING official from SASS on this issue. Yes, there is a lot of talk and rumor on the TG wire as there has been just about every year. Yet, no matter who you hear it from, it is nothing but rumor until SASS officially presents the TGs with a proposal. As we saw with the equipment issue, the final proposal was nothing like the many rumors that floated around beforehand - many attributed to members of the "Wild Bunch".

Until such time as SASS gives us details and folks know what they are voting for, it is premature to ask for a vote. If and when SASS asks for a vote from the membership, and I can give folks real facts to look over, I'll post a vote here as I did with the equipment vote.
~dd~

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#13 Jailbird

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 12:05 PM

Hello All,
                     Is Winter over yet ????     Just looked out the window -- guess not :thumbdown:

IMHO --- we DO NOT need a power factor in CAS/SASS shooting and I do not support it.  However , I MAYBE would support a Big/Small Bore type of factor but do not really see a need.
                                            Jailbird

#14 Rio Jack

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 02:35 PM

View PostJailbird, on Feb 26 2007, 12:05 PM, said:

Hello All,
                     Is Winter over yet ????     Just looked out the window -- guess not :thumbdown:

IMHO --- we DO NOT need a power factor in CAS/SASS shooting and I do not support it.  However , I MAYBE would support a Big/Small Bore type of factor but do not really see a need.
                                            Jailbird

:2gunsfiring_v1:

I am all for raising the minimum load requirments.Ihave heard guns go off that sound like Pop Guns. Almost not enough power to get the bullet out of the gun. If the gun dosen't sound like it went off with a bang, it's to light of a load.

Edited by Rio Jack, 26 February 2007 - 02:37 PM.

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#15 Jailbird

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 03:55 PM

Hi Rio Jack,
                       As I RO or run the timer at every match I shoot for the last 5/6 years -- I understand the safety problems when a shooter has a "squib" or bullet stuck in the barrel of their firearm. I have stopped MANY mishaps because of this. MOST of them are not from people trying to "Game" and find the lowest FPS that they can. I find MOST happened because of "sloppy" reloading either by the shooter or their reloader.
                      I myself , as a "Gamer" have tried .38s as light as 85 grains --- BUT -- I settled on 125 grainers because the spotters were calling misses and didn't see or hear the hits !!!   I also tried 160 grainers when I shot .45LC but again , I chose the 200 grainers for most the same reasons.
                      In reloading , you can only go so "slow" and then you hit the point of diminishing returns.

               All that aside , as a Match Director , I fear a "nightmare" as to how to enforce a min. volocity or power factor. SASS has a Maximum Volicity right now ---- I have never seen or heard of someone wanting to chronograph a shooter for "warthog" loads at any of the 300+ shoots that I have entered.                      I think nearly all Cowboy Shooters are honest and would abide by whatever rules SASS or the Match Officials have in place.  A problem I would not want to be involved in is IF shooter "A" comes at the end of a match , and tells me that shooter "B" has been useing underpowered ammo ALL DAY !!!!
                How would we prove that DUREING the match , shooter "A" did in fact use Illeagel Ammo ??


          RioJack -- me and you are buddies :good:       PLEASE do not think I am belittleing you in any way --- both you and I have the same "voice/vote" on ANYTHING Cowboy related.           In the above , I have only stated the reasons I would not support a Min. and hope I've not offended anyone.
                                                                                Your pal -- Bird

#16 Grizzly Clark

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 04:18 PM

I agree with most of what has been said.  I don't think we need any MINIMUM load requirements.  If they are forced upon us, I will be very interested in seeing how they are enforced.

MYHO

Griz

#17 Wrangler Rich

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 04:55 PM

:usabig:


Thanks, DD.  I favor Getting all the information available before "Jumping off the Cliff" ;)  



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#18 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 07:56 PM

Denny,

FYI, SASS has aleady put this issue before the TG's --at the SASS Convention. Currently, it stands that the TG's are to take all of 2007 to discuss the issue--at Top Priority, and search out not only where the Membership stands on the issue, but also to come up with rasonable ways of inacting some standard that can be practically inforced, should the need be concidered great enough.

I have no idea, where these discussions will go, or what form of inactment will, in the end, be concidered feasable. I'm just acting on the wishes , already expressed, by the Wild Bunch.

I do have some other info, which --for now, as requested, is not for discussion with anyone but fellow TG's. Be glad to share it with you, just give me a call.

Tex

#19 dd

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 09:13 PM

Tex,

I wish I could put links to the posts on the TG wire on our board here so everyone could see that there is considerable disagreement concerning this issue. Several TGs have expressed opinions that this "call to arms", as Tex (#4) puts it, is not a mandate for the TGs to rally to troops. The top post (as of this evening) also wants to know what the problem is. If the problem is not defined, then how do we find a solution? I agree.

I stick by my previous post - most of this is talk and rumor.
~dd~

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#20 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 08:04 AM

Denny,

There we are in complete agreement. Most of it, seems to me, to be Pi$$in' in the wind.

That is why I ask for everyone to put in their two cents. Nimbers talk louder then the complainers most times. Talked to Hipshot recently, and he told me that this issue will be top of the order at WR, and all regional and higher shoots for the rest of the year. I figure best to go armed. the opions of our fellow shooters should make me, Armed enough.

Tex

#21 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 03:24 PM

I joined SASS because I thought it would be "The closest thing to the old west short of a time machine" to coin a popular phrase.  I did not expect to encounter shooters that would use weapons or loads that would not have been used/seen in the old west from 1860 - 1899.  I must disagree with those who shoot loads that are so light that you can actually see the bullet travel from the barrel to the target.  I must disagree with those who shoot loads that are so light that you cannot even hear the report nor hear the bang off of the steel.  That to me is just not what the old west was all about.  Of course, if folks want to do that they have my blessing.  I suggest there be a new category for that (gamers, those with slicked up or race guns, super light loads) so those who want to live the real old west can maintain the aura of why they most likely joined SASS in the first place.  Quite honestly, I get tired of being in posses that are filled with gamers because they really suck the fun out of it, at least for me.  There's my two bits - worth as much as the "paper" it's printed on...........    :usabig:
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#22 Pair-A-Dice

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 07:27 AM

I have read all this and quite frankly it is some of the same stuff I have heard since joining SASS.  Here is MY LIST, for what it's worth:

1) In the 90s, those of us that shot 38/357s, were called gamers.  Just because it was small bore.  My comment then, as it is now, I shot too many "hot loads" like over stuffed 44 mags from short barreled guns for wwwaaayyyyy to long and I pay for it now in my wrists and hands!  I can shoot "factory standard" 38s on Saturday and Sunday and not have to worry if I can hold a pen at work the next week to make money to shoot the next weekend!  Like I was with the 45 LCs and 44-40s.

I don't have a problem with 32s as long as they are loaded to factory standards!  Colt Patterson's were .31 caliber!

2) My biggest problem with the light loads has to do with the safety issues.  If they bounce back and hurt someone is a very different thing from splatter.  I would rather get hit with a small piece of splatter than an entire ball from a light load.

3) I agree with Grandpa Sixguns.  I know from the RO courses that the Spotters have the hardest job trying to determine if these pills actually hit the steel.  When you can't hear it go off, you can't hear the ding, and in a lot of cases, the steel does not move when hit!

4) #3 IS IMPORTANT because according to SASS, the MAJORITY of the membership is over 50 years old.  Which means worse eyesight and hearing.  If I can't hear it or see it when you shoot it, it's a miss!  I don't believe in the "Golden BB".

5) I'm also glad to know Muddy is still among us, and as usual, he ain't worth 2 bits!  HAHA

6) I'm still gonna shoot 38/357s, and I am goning to shoot them to powder manufacturers standards.  

When I have all the facts and something to vote on, I will.  Untill then, this is just my opinion.

Dice
My friends have always been Cowboys!
"That's the truth......Give or take a lie or two!"

#23 Tex Hewitt

Tex Hewitt

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:29 AM

Dice

Thanks for the reply. Concise and well stated. Anyone else care to comment. Please, ya'all, add your two centavos, that's how us hard headed TG's learn!




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