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Guest Message by DevFuse

A simple question


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17 replies to this topic

#1 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 05:47 PM

Howdy Pards,

Much has been made of things lately, both good and bad, so I'd like thoughts on things taken to the simplist factor.

Yes, what we do is play a game. In any game, even ours, there are rules that dictate how the game is to be played. Mostly, rules in games exist to keep the playing feild as level as it is possible to keep things. Forcing all competitors to play exactly the same.

Therefor, if SASS Hq decides that a change is needed, in order to keep things the same for everyone, would you back that decision?

Let me thank you in advance for your replies.

#2 dd

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:16 PM

That depends upon what is proposed. I won't buy a "pig in a poke" and I won't agree to something until I know what I'm agreeing to. That said, what is the problem that needs fixin'?
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#3 Lawman Wolf

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:30 PM

Sorry Tex but that question is way to generic. What do they want to do, how will it work, what plans do they have and exactly what needs to be leveled? Also no other sport plays exactly the same so what does that mean?  Thanks for any insight.
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#4 Devereaux

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:10 AM

It's not clear that there's anything that needs "fixin'", Tex. I understand the ruckus over light loads, and we have aired it here fairly extensively. It would be my impression that most people here kind of like it the way it is, and that if there is a contingent that wants "heavy" loads, or "realism" or what-have-you, then maybe SASS can make a class for them to exercise their needs. As we stand what we have is a fairly tolerant sport that includes a lot of people, and generally it seems that people have a good time participating in it. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of griping and moaning about anything other than perhaps a few personalities. There have already been steps on limiting how far you can short-stroke a rifle, there have been plenty of comments on old West loads vs ladies or small-framed people that still have a good time shooting. We may have never gotten to discuss just how much prevalence there was to things like .38 Short Colt rounds, but I believe Billy the Kid carried a Lightening in .38, and by today's standards that was a "wimp" load (hell, even in the Philippines it was so considered!). I firmly believe that "the enemy of good is better" and that we should be careful not to rouse up unnecessary controversy. It may be one thing to talk about things, but DOING something tends to be government-like, and we all know just how well the government "solves" things.   :innocent:
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#5 Push the Button Wyatt

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:17 AM

Dev.You are truley a gentleman and a educated man of the first order,and i concur with every you say,right on. :clapping:

#6 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:13 PM

Gents,

Maybe I'm not saying this right, let me try again. First, however, lets take the light loads question out of the equasion. In that regard, SASS has already decided, there will be a change, and whatever that change will be (My understanding is that even the Wild Bunch is not yet sure how they will change things, only that they will change things.) there is no stopping it now.

This then brings the point back to it's original question. Do you think that those who run this game, have the right to make changes?  

Baseball does it, as does football and almost any other sport you could name. Isn't it the right of the orginazation to decide, from time to time, that change is needed to better the product.
Or, should they just hand over controll to the voice of those who disagree with decissions based on their own ideas of what is best for all concerned?  Are decisions from the top, something you could back based on there ability to treat all involved fairly?

Is that stated more clear?

#7 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

Lawman,

In regard to your question(s), here is what I know for certain.  At the Winter Range TG meeting, the Wild Bunch let it be known that there will be a change forth coming. They, SASS HQ, got tired of hearing the words--is there realy a problem. Now they have stated that Yes, there is a problem, and we're going to do something about it. (Basically, I'm not sure that even they know what the change will be yet. There are many ideas out on the table to be picked through. Also, they are currently gathering in DATA on power faactors, current specs on factory loads, and the effect of Knock Down Targets on the over all match.)

The only real constant is, SASS has let it be known, that some form of change will be instituted, some time this year. Thankfully, they have, as yet, left the door open for ideas and suggestion as to the direction this change will, or might ,take.  The only dorr they have closed, shut tight in fact, is the one that debates the issue, is there a problem.

Sorry, but that's all I have on the issue at pressent.

#8 Longtooth

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 02:40 PM

Trying to level the playing field is blue sky. The shooters that practice and dedicate themselves to some form of excellance with always be on top. Full house the loads and they will still beat your as-.

If the powers to be are dead set in trying to accomplish something then let them propose it and let the members of SASS vote. My opinion is if it's not broken why fix it. Wimp loads, full house loads, loads with grits and loads with whatever who cares as long as it safe and everyone is having fun.  :cowboy1:

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#9 Jailbird

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:06 PM

Howdy All,
                         Just my 2 cents --------- NO , I do not think that "we" should follow blindly whatever SASS/Wild Bunch hand out to us. If I am correct , it takes a 3/4 majority of Ter. Gov. to affect a change. I still would have liked to see a 51% and not a 75%.     Also --- SASS/WB can still veto whatever the majority of the paying members want , no matter what is "voted" on.

                        Lets look at IPSC ----------- started by Col. Jeff Cooper {RIP} ---- after a few years , he was in the minorty that wanted that "game" to be more reality based. So , he quit and disavowed the game/child that he started.  END RESULT -- IPSC has been going stronger then ever for over TWENTY YEARS without Jeff Cooper at the helm.

                        Don't get me wrong --- SASS is fine and I have no real bone to pick with The WB etc.        But as has been said --- "they" own it and "we" are just paying customers.    If you don't keep your customers happy -- soon you will not have any !!!!

                                       Just my look at it --------- Jailbird { don't need no stinkin spellchecker}

#10 Kidd Casey

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:40 PM

Change? well change is inevitable ,and it's part of life.But there are things we can control and I think this is one of them.You have those that are real Gamers,and those of us that joined SASS and our possies, just to have a great time doing something with others that have the same interests. Shooting,dressing up,and just having fun. Whether you're seventeen or seventy seven. Husband and Wife or father and son. This is what drew me and my wife to join. We all have the same interest,and as we play we improve our own ability and level of play. Some will get better and want to move up at ther own pace, but to change a rule just to suit the advanced players ? baseball,Football,again you have the majors, and the minors, woman's league,and little league.The rules are pretty much the same for all but vary upon sex and age,and your ability.If there was only one league,you would have only a small percentage of players,and no level to grow and expand.If you change the rules to suit only the advanced players you lose all your future players, and you take the family fun away from the game,at least for some of us. I don't think this is the right direction for us to grow. K.C.
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#11 Lawman Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 04:04 PM

View PostTex Hewitt, on Mar 18 2007, 01:29 PM, said:

Lawman,

In regard to your question(s), here is what I know for certain.  At the Winter Range TG meeting, the Wild Bunch let it be known that there will be a change forth coming. They, SASS HQ, got tired of hearing the words--is there realy a problem. Now they have stated that Yes, there is a problem, and we're going to do something about it. (Basically, I'm not sure that even they know what the change will be yet. There are many ideas out on the table to be picked through. Also, they are currently gathering in DATA on power faactors, current specs on factory loads, and the effect of Knock Down Targets on the over all match.)

The only real constant is, SASS has let it be known, that some form of change will be instituted, some time this year. Thankfully, they have, as yet, left the door open for ideas and suggestion as to the direction this change will, or might ,take.  The only dorr they have closed, shut tight in fact, is the one that debates the issue, is there a problem.

Sorry, but that's all I have on the issue at pressent.
Well if that's the case Tex then I'm not sure why we are going to worry about this issue. If they have made up their minds without listening or considering the vast majority of those that pay/play then there is no reason to voice an opinion. At that point we just see what the decision is and then we decide if we let our feet do the walkin. Does not sound to me like they are open much for ideas or suggestions as you stated cause the door is already closed.

I wonder what then are they going to do, to level the playing field for those props that are to tall for some of us. Or what about the props that are to short, will we all be made to wear the same boots because we don't want one guy to have faster boots than the other. Same with hats, holsters, gun belts, speed loaders,powders and so on . What about the those that don't see so well or have medical reasons for shooting lets say, lighter loads.  Seems to me like SASS is just taking out the individuality. They talk about how we need young shooters, well,well ,well,  enough said.

One last question, if you take out the lighter calibers or lighter loads, and say, required a 158 grain 38 caliber round nose with a 800fps velocity to be the mimimum, would it not then become the lighter load in SASS thus being unfair for those who chose not to shoot it and  the circle starts again.
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#12 dd

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:41 PM

Tex,

That still begs the question. I get the same stuff from SASS you do, and I visit the RO2 Inst. & TG forums like you do. And while I get the sense there may be changes in store, no body knows for sure what form these changes, if there are any, may take. I've had occasion to talk to one of the Wild Bunch and get one story and a week later talked to the Judge and get a completely different story. The members of the Wild Bunch are not in agreement on what needs to be fixed or how to do it.

Are you looking to see if folks will support SASS if they make changes? Or are you referring to some rumors I've heard about some folks wanting to break away from SASS and  establish a competing organization because they don't like the way SASS does things?

Me, I'll ignore the rumors and wait for the facts to be presented before I come to any conclusion.
~dd~

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#13 jeweler jim

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 12:35 AM

When I got home from the gun show I put together a reply, but I had my daughter who is home for spring break look at it before I posted it.  She said it was my usual "smart a--" comments and probably shouldn't post it.

I woke up a little after midnight and here I am again.  The gist of what I didn't post is that this, like a few other threads, is a waste of time.  There ain't "no question," topic or anything of substance to decide, discuss or debate.  What I find it to be is "pot stirring" with nothing to chew on after it's done.  My daughter is in bed so I guess I can add my reply now and get in trouble.

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#14 Devereaux

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 07:31 AM

Well, there you go, Tex. You have your answer. People are not really sure just what is being proposed, there seems to be a lot of discordance even in the WB, most people are pretty happy with what we have as it stands, AND ... we're still a free people, and that means that we can stay with SASS or walk. IDPA walked from IPSC, and they are a thriving organization with their own theory of application. Still shooters in IPSC. It could be the same for SASS. So let's just see what they ACTUALLY say, and then decide what we accept, what we don't pay attention to, and whether we walk or not.
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#15 Blue Moon Johnny

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 09:44 AM

:clapping:   I agree with Longtooth!
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#16 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 05:28 PM

All these questions may take more then one post to answer. (Especially as this site(computer) does not like me anywho! LOL

Denny,

In answer to your second question first----BOTH!

Jim,

You bet I'm trying to stir the pot--as it where--and here is why. To many in SASS feel that sitting still and having a sever case of LOCK JAW is always the best course of action. When I talk to SASS HQ (A TG's job by the way) I NEED INPUT! bnasically, my opinion is just that--my opinion--not the opinion of those I represent--UNLESS THEY TELL ME WHAT THEY THINK! Sometimes, finding hens teeth would be easier.  So, I get folks rieled up enouth to speak. (A representitive government is useless without people voicing their thoughts!

Lawman,

Yes, some decissions have been made, BUT NOT ALL DECISIONS.  The opertunity to help in forming what decisions become law, depends on us acting in the best intrest of all shooters. Yes, the Wild Bunch gets the final say. Yet what far to many in SASS don't understand is that, currently, there is a changing of the guard taking place in the Wild Bunch. The Judge, and the General, Dutch, Tex and the rest may have founded the game, but they are now of a mind to RETIRE from it's running. Voices like, Chizler, Coyote Calhoun and other newcomers are the ones now stiring the ship. Why should the membership not speak up as to the future corse? Your view will only get heard, IF YOU SPEAK THEM!

Bird,

The current trouble, I.E. wimp loads, is not one we, all the local clubs in this neck of the woods face. On the whole, this has nothing to do with what we see week in and week out. Since the Midwest folks seem to follow the spirit of the game more then most, it's not really about us, (persay) but about the future of the game. Seems, from all I've gathered in, this problem exists mostly in the south west, and then slightly in the west as well. If half of what I'm being told is true, then there are some who are taking Shotgun Primers and using only that to propel pistol rounds. Further, from only a safety aspect, there are documented reports of some fast, low power shooters, jaming three and four bullets into barrels already. I for one, don't want to be the R.O> with the timer in my hands when this moves to the inevitable conclusion.

Yes Gents,

None of us like the idea of having to deal with this. but in the end, we can't escape dealing with it. We'll get one chance to be part of some form of solution. I'd rather have some voice, then none at all.

#17 Ugly

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 07:12 PM

Well, here we go:

We still need to know what changes are being proposed and how radical those changes would be;

Who is proposing to break away from SASS and what would this competing organization be: 3-Gun Western?  That is an entirely different type of shooting;

Stirring the pot may be good, but, not to get people riled up over nothing if nothing major is going to happen;

As to the changing of the guard of SASS, they are all businessmen and they know if they get people too aggravated that the people will walk, or, worse yet, not pay yearly dues, which, in my opinion the people who run SASS are getting like the oil cartels in that they are raising the rates and we get nothing for the extra $$$: what do you get from SASS now: a cheap membership card and that's it: even if you run a state match what do you get from SASS that requires it to be sponsored by SASS; some out of date chronicles and maybe a pennant? I don't know, it sure isn't a lot.

As far as the wimp loads, let 'em pile up six in their barrels, if they are loaded the way you described there isn't enough pressure to blow up a balloon much less a steel barrel. Most barrel blockages are caused by bad reloading skills more than anything, not weak loads.

Like Lawman said, where does it stop if a low power factor is instituted? Where are you going to have the time or space to set up a chronograph and check velocities?  Most clubs don't have the extra room or bays to do this.  The only place I know of this happening in other shooting sports was at major matches in IPSC; I've competed in the Nationals, Regionals, Three-Gun Championships and, yes you had to have a major or minor power factor so, big deal, you loaded accordingly.  In our sport we don't have the scoring-ring targets (cardboard) nor do we have the ability to change targets for each shooter for the same reason we won't be able to chronograph.

Most clubs don't require shooters to be members of SASS so, if things really fall apart as far as the governing body of SASS goes that would probably signal the end of most "large" shoots and people would just stay around home and shoot local matches.  There is at least one large, popular match within easy (six hours) driving distance that is getting really fed up with SASS and more could follow.

WR had knockdown targets that were calibrated to go down with a .32 and some people still didn't knock the targets down on account of bad bullet placement; oh, well, sometimes you have to suck it up and learn to use your sights and trigger control like in other shooting sports.  Knock-down plates are fine as long as there is a way to keep the level and calibrated and, again, if you're shooting something that is so underpowered that you are afraid that your bullet might not take the plate down then shame on you.

Just my own 8 cents or so worth.
:innocent:  :devil:
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#18 Tex Hewitt

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 07:02 PM

Ugly,

As to what fixs are being proposed, well it's all over the board. Here are some of the most mentioned ones.

Institute a power factor---this was discussed at the WR TG meeting, with a PF of 75 a possible bottom line
(In case anyone is wondering --you compute power factor thus  Bullet weightX volicity(fps) divided by 1000)

Bring back a minimum volicity (fps)

The use of a DB meter at major shootes to determine vol.

Limit the smallest weight bullet to be used in all cal.--by cal.

Restrict the use of 32's to the Jr. Womens and Senior mens catigories

Require the use of KD calibrated to a minimum power factor

Require the use of KD's--and add a bonus in time for those KD that do fall


As you can see, there is much work to do yet to get anything settled. AS to the Who's thinking of splitting off, I did not suggest that anyone split off, just answering Denny's question. I want to know where folks stand, and how strongly, that's all.




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