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TG Summit Voting Results...
Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:33 AM
Agenda Items for the 2010 Territorial Governors Summit
with Voting Results
1. Should we eliminate the 10-second minor safety penalty for overloading a RIFLE? This will do away with the double penalty for overloading a rifle at the loading table; and then leaving the extra live round(s) in the long gun. Penalties for leaving unfired rounds in the rifle would still apply but, if a shooter overloaded the rifle, they could clear it within the current rules and not be charged a penalty. This rule change would not make the rifle any less safe. Note this only applies to a rifle and NOT to a revolver or shotgun. Should the following Minor Safety Penalty be deleted? • Loading more than the correct number of live rounds in a firearm.
For: 57% Against: 43% Failed
2. Should we change the rule regarding empties left on the carrier or in the chamber of a long gun? An unfired round in the chamber would continue to carry a Stage Disqualification penalty and an unfired round anywhere else in the action or magazine a 10 second minor safety. This change would eliminate all penalties for EMPTY rounds in the chamber or action of long guns. Should the MSV penalty for leaving an EMPTY case/hull in a long gun be deleted?
For: 42% Against: 58% Failed
3. Should we create the new sanctioned shooting category “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter”? The category would follow the firearm and ammo guidelines of the current “Frontier Cartridge” category and follow the shooting style and holster requirements of the current “Gunfighter” Category. The main reason to add FCGF to the list of "officially recognized" categories is that it brings the BP categories up to par with the smokeless ones in regard to available shooting styles. Smokeless = Open/age-based (two-handed); Duelist/Senior Duelist/Classic (one-handed); Gunfighter/B-Western (both hands) Black Powder = Frontier Ctg (two-handed); Frontiersman/Frontier Ctg Duelist (one-handed); FCGF (both hands)
For: 63% Against: 37% Failed
4. The Burgess Rifle is a SASS legal firearm. It was patented in 1882. Should the rifle regulations for B-Western be changed as follows to allow the earliest rifle to be from 1880 instead of present 1884? • Rifles: Any SASS–legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (i.e. Burgess, Lightning, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).
For: 90% Against: 10% Passed
Posted 15 December 2010 - 08:45 AM
(Corrected paragraph in blue 12-12-10)
(Additional information supplied by Pale Wolf Brunelle 12-14-10 in Green)
Here are the minutes from the SASS TG Convention. At this point, they have not been proofed by anyone other than me. I have done the best my little fat fingers would allow. Trying to type fast, for me anyway, is like trying to flag down the Super Chief train at midnight using a burnt out match.
If you were in attendance, and see any errors, please let me know.
But, here she goes,
TG Summit Meeting Minutes
Thursday, December 9, 2010Open 10:00 AM Hipshot[/b]
Pledge to the flag led by Hipshot
A moment of silence was observed for our soldiers abroad that are fighting for our freedoms.
RO committee was scaled down. Members of the current committee were announced (went to fast for me to type them).
Blackjack Zak (Assistant Chairman)
PaleWolf Brunelle (Archivist/Parlimentarian)
Coyote Calhoun (WB)
Summit plan is to complete summit by Friday. Votes taken on Friday and results announced on Saturday.
Posse marshal applications are available for End Of Trail, see Hipshot. This will be the 30th anniversary of “End Of Trail.”
All votes will be binding based on votes made this weekend and include the proxy votes sent in.
Coyote introduced Slipnoose, the new club administrator in the SASS office. Give her a call in the SASS office with any club questions.
There has been a change on the club affiliation renewal date. Club renewals are now due on the date that the clubs insurance is renewed. Club information can now be updated on the Internet through the SASS web site. Clubs can update match information as soon as it is available. They can also update TG and club officer information.
January 1st, applications for 2012 state matches will be available. Wild Bunch match applications can be obtained as well. Starting in 2012 SASS will require that Wild Bunch Matches must follow the Wild Bunch rules. It will become part of the contract for the state and regional Wild Bunch matches. It is anticipated that Wild Bunch will eventually be on its own and grow apart from cowboy action. Currently, it needs the cowboy shooters to help in its development. In the long term it will stand alone.
AGENDA ITEMS REVIEW
Item #1. Should we eliminate the 10-second minor safety penalty for overloading a RIFLE?
This will do away with the double penalty for overloading a rifle at the loading table; and then leaving the extra live round(s) in the long gun. Penalties for leaving unfired rounds in the rifle would still apply but, if a shooter overloaded the rifle, they could clear it within the current rules and not be charged a penalty. This rule change would not make the rifle any less safe.
Note this only applies to a rifle and NOT to a revolver or shotgun.
Should the following Minor Safety Penalty be deleted?
• Loading more than the correct number of live rounds in a firearm.
Question, did the rules committee make a recommendation on the item? The answer was yes, the rule committee was in favor of this change.
The rule would only eliminate the double penalty. Any stage or match DQ would not be effected.
Question raised that a shooter could consistently load 10 rounds on 9 round stages in case he jacked out a round. It was explained that an extra round in the gun cannot be used as a reload. A jacked out round must be loaded from the body, not the tube.
There were strong opinions on each side of the issue.
Item #2. Should we change the rule regarding empties left on the carrier or in the chamber of a long gun? An unfired round in the chamber would continue to carry a Stage Disqualification penalty and an unfired round anywhere else in the action or magazine a 10 second minor safety. This change would eliminate all penalties for EMPTY rounds in the chamber or action of long guns.
Should the MSV penalty for leaving an EMPTY case/hull in a long gun be deleted?
Some felt that an open gun with a spent round, is no harm to anyone.
Others felt that if we changed the rule of “Open and empty” should be changed to just open eliminating the need for this item altogether. But, that does not cover an open gun with a loaded round.
Comment made that side by side users would not make an attempt to clear the shotgun.
Request to change verbiage to “all long guns will be staged open and safe at the end of a shooting string.”
The amendment failed by a large majority.
PaleWolf Brunelle - “Any changes will require changes in several other locations in the rule book.”
Black Jack Zak - “Elimination of this rule covers only empty rounds. Loaded rounds would still be a safety penalty, stage DQ. All other references in the handbooks would be updated to reflect the change” (if necessary).
Item #3. Should we create the new sanctioned shooting category “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter”? The category would follow the firearm and ammo guidelines of the current “Frontier Cartridge” category and follow the shooting style and holster requirements of the current “Gunfighter” Category.
The main reason to add FCGF to the list of "officially recognized" categories is that it brings the BP categories up to par with the smokeless ones in regard to available shooting styles.
Smokeless = Open/age-based (two-handed); Duelist/Senior Duelist/Classic (one-handed); Gunfighter/B-Western (both hands)
Black Powder = Frontier Ctg (two-handed); Frontiersman/Frontier Ctg Duelist (one-handed);
FCGF (both hands)
Some support for and against the item. Little additional discussion. It was noted that clubs currently are permitted to have their own additional categories and it was not necessary to make any new categories “Official.” If you want them, you can.
Item #4. The Burgess Rifle is a SASS legal firearm. It was patented in 1882.
Should the rifle regulations for B-Western be changed as follows to allow the earliest rifle to be from 1880 instead of present 1884?
• Rifles: Any SASS – legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (i.e. Burgess, Lightning, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).
“What is wrong with it?” Basically there was little objection to the rifle age modification. The majority was in favor of its use in a straw pole.
Additional Discussion Items (Non voting)
MULTIPLE ENTRIES IN A SINGLE MATCH BY THE SAME SHOOTER
Example of a shooter that was entered twice. One got a Match DQ. The other alias continued in the match.
Majority agreed that the shooter should have a match DQ for both shooters. Some discussion on the concept of permitting multiple entries by the same shooter. (It is the clubs option to allow this or not allow it).
MARES LEG 92 CONVERSION
Should the Mares Leg 92 handgun be allowed as a main match handgun. Straw pole votes were almost unanimous that it was not a good idea.
Adjourn 12:00 Noon
TG Summit Meeting Minutes
Friday, December 10, 2010
Open 9:00 AM Hipshot
Pledge to the flag led by Hipshot
*Announcements; Votes will be taken today and results will be available at the registration center on Saturday.
*Hipshot announced that over 300 clubs were represented at this years convention. This was a record.
*Discussion on reviewing the category restructure. Hipshot explained a matrix of categories that would greatly increase the total number of categories. Not a proposal but only one of many possibilities. Some possibilities could create over 90 categories total.
*Discussion wanting a 75 years old plus category.
*Some felt, that because clubs can have any categories they want, there was no need to make them “Official.”
*If there was any changes in the category structure it would probably be best to do it as an overall look instead of making changes piecemeal.
*Some would like to see the official categories reduced.
RO COMMITTEE REPORT
RO Committee job is to clarify the rules.
*We still need to improve enforcement of SASS rules at matches.
*The Beretta Laramie can be modified from an "adjustable sight" revolver to a fixed sight revolver by making the following modification to the revolver.
*The Laramie rear latch with adjustable rear sight can be replaced with the rear latch with fixed sight from the Russian Model. The barrel & front sights are already the same on both guns.
*Who should teach the RO course? Currently, ROII holders can teach a ROI course. Starting January 1st, SASS requires that an ROII instructor must observe the teaching of an ROI class. In the past, any ROII could teach the class. A regular ROII can still teach the class but they must be observed by an ROII instructor. The ROII instructor must sign off on the class rooster.
Some clubs do not have RO instructors in their areas. SASS will move to increase the number of ROII instructors and ROII certification instructors. It is recognized that there is a shortage in some areas, of ROII certification instructors. Currently Wild Bunch and RO Committee members are the only people that can certify an instructor. Those wishing to become an ROII instructor can begin the journey by contacting Hipshot.
*It was suggested, from the floor, that a list of RO Instructors be published so clubs would have a reference when looking for someone to teach classes.
*It was also suggested, from the floor, that we add an RO instructors meeting at next years convention.
*How do we handle a rules violation that is observed when it is not your posse.
It is OK to quietly talk with the posse marshal about the infraction. If it is brushed off, take it to the match officials (range master or match director). Let them deal with it from there. It is then out of your hands.
*The official coach, for a shooter, is the timer operator. The spotters are a match official and they too are expected to coach the shooter only on safety items, round counts (one more etc.) and knock down targets (still up etc.). If the shooter listens to someone else in the gallery, (that is not the TO or spotter) and follows incorrect coaching, the shooter would not get a reshoot. There was a fair amount of discussion on who coaches and who is responsible for coaching or causing the shooter to make a mistake. The issue boils down to the timer operator is in charge. Improper direction, followed by the shooter from anyone else does not qualify for a reshoot. (With the exception of safety calls by the spotters).
*For clarification, the rule book will have a change of references from Range Officer to Timer Operator to alleviate any confusion.
*When a TO tells a shooter an improper move, that gets the shooter a procedural, and there was no real advantage or disadvantage in the way the stage was shot, some clubs have made it a no call. This is incorrect. The correct procedure would be the shooter has the option of taking the stage, as is with the procedure, or taking a reshoot.
*When a shooter gets a minor safety due to improper coaching from the TO or spotters, only the match director, can grant the reshoot without the safety being carried over. It is cautioned that many factors can effect how this would be handled.
*The boot soles description for Classic Cowboy will be changed to include “no lug soles”.
*The definition of “Action open” is when you can visible see if there is a round in the action. It was mentioned, from the floor, that a 73 (and other long guns) are designed so that you can actually see the case while the action is closed. This will be revisited by the RO Committee for a better and more usable description.
*How far can a shooter move from the loading table with loaded guns before they get a safety penalty? Use common sense, making a definitive distance is to difficult.
*The timer operator is the only one that can offer a restart (not to be confused with a reshoot) for a shooter having difficulty before the first round goes downrange. If a shooter fumbles and looks up at the TO and says I want to start over, it is up to the TO, to allow it or not. It is a judgement call and TO’s should be aware of abuse.
*Springs added to assist the extractor on shotguns are not allowed.
*When stage instructions say load nine rounds in the rifle. These are stage instructions. To load ten rounds is not failure of loading table procedures (Stage DQ) but a failure to follow stage instrucrions (Minor Safety). Failure to follow loading table rules is not leaving hammer on an empty chamber, loading somewhere other than the loading table etc.
*Other refinements for clarification will be made in the handbook and other rules material.
*Revolver rear sight inserts / outlined sights. Verbiage for rifles to be inserted to keep consistency for revolvers: “Rear sights may utilize an insert of the same color as the rear sight, to allow easy sight adjustment” added to “Adjustable sight revolver” on page 6 of ROI.
*Laramie revolver rear sights. Can they be considered “Fixed?” Yes.
*Verbiage on white outline on pistols will be redone.
*Gave a review of rules clarifications that were published in the Chronicle.
*Shotgun ammo slides (over another shogun shell holder) verbiage will be improved to lesson confusion.
*The definition of some items in the glossary will be update and clarified.
*A clarification on allowing the bending of the opening lever on a shotgun created much discussion. After much discussion it was decided to add verbiage to the rules permitting the opening lever on a side by side shotgun to be bent so that it clears the hammers. There was concern as to how far some people would go with bending, extending and reforming. They felt that we needed some limitation on what can be done to the lever.
The Committee will also need to take another look at the "top lever bending" issue, as there are a number of SxS's that would be ILLEGAL if the 'approved' verbiage is applied.
A motion was made to table the issue for an agenda item in 2011. It was 2nd and failed.
Verbiage for the lever was offered as, allow the lever to be bent latterly no farther than the outside edge of the tang of the frame.
The final verbiage will be (slightly paraphrased) “The top opening lever on break action shotguns can be bent laterally, such that the outside of the lever does not exceed the outside edge of the tang with the action closed.” (This means bent only, no additional metal added).
*If you are shooting black powder rounds in a smokeless category, you must meet the power factor of the smokeless category. There would be no smoke requirements when using black powder rounds in a smokeless category.
OPEN DISCUSSIONS NEW BUSINESS
*One wanted the RO committee to consider removing “Failure To Engage” from the book and have it covered by Spirit of The Game.
*It was recommended that a committee of 7 should review the SASS categories, make a recommendation on their findings and make report to be presented at the 2011 summit. There is already a committee in place and they will be called into action.
*Bolo ties should be added to the costume list for B Western. A motion was made, 2nd. The motion was passed. Bolo ties will be permitted as a costume item in the B-Western Category.
Ballots were collected.
SATURDAYVoting results available, These votes are binding.
To pass requires a 2/3 majority vote.
Item #1 For = 57% Against = 43% Failed
Item #2 For = 42% Against = 58% Failed
Item #3 For = 63% Against = 37% Failed
Item #4 For = 90% Against = 10% Passed
Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:04 PM
Thanks for including Chuckaroo's comments and minutes. By reading those, it clarifies some of the process that is used in the TG Summit. Thanks for sending out the "Proxy" to PWB as some on the SASS wire seemed to think their opinions didn't count. I know ours did.
Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:13 PM
Old BC Coot
"There's no such thing as normal life - there's just life now get on with it." - Doc Holliday
"This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bill Hickock . . . said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it." - Matthew Quigley
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