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Guest Message by DevFuse

Smart Stage Design -


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34 replies to this topic

#1 dd

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:05 PM

The May 2006  issue of the Cowboy Chronicle has Tex's usual editorial on page 6. In it, he discusses what he calls "Smart Stage Design", and which he maintains would tend to tip the scales away from the "race gun" and "gamer" crowd and somewhat level the playing field for shooters.

I invite you to read the article and post your opinions here. We are always hearing from those who want the targets "up close and personal" and tailored for the speed shooter. Yet, I've never heard from someone who wanted the targets to be smaller or further away. While I don't agree with everything Tex says, he does have some interesting ideas.

Read it and let us know what you think.

:D  :D
~dd~

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#2 Ugly

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:29 PM

[font=Georgia]About the only thing that I can agree with Tex on is target placement; staggering the heights of the targets for each particular weapon will cause people to slow down a bit to make sure there is a good sight picture. If all the targets are in a straight line from left to right, it's pretty easy to really blaze across without having to really practice sight picture and trigger control.

If targets are made smaller and/or placed further out, the new shooter or those with poorer shooting skills are going to be frustrated and might not come back after a while because they can't hit the targets; no one wants a lot of misses; the whole idea is to "clang" some steel.

Bottom line: no matter what is done about target size, placement or stage design, the fast shooters are still going to be faster than 97% of the other shooters and still be in the winners circle; there will just be even more of a time difference between the speedy shooters and the average shooter.

I, personally, don't like targets to be within touching distance, but, I also don't like the targets to be a long distance, bullseye type of arragement either.

Just my own .02 on the subject.

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#3 Lawman Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 11:08 PM

There was also an article of like nature in the last chronicle. I would say the idea of having targets spread apart at different distances(left to right), moved up or down from target to target or staggering them in many other ways is a good idea. For example you can set up stages so that only two shotgun shells would be pulled at a time even though you may have four or six shotgun targets in that stage. You can do like Beloit did last week and give the shooter the option of shooting close or shooting your pistol on the rifle targets to get bonus seconds. You can set your props up so that certain weapons have to be fired in a certain sequence or position. There are endless possibilities left only to ones imagination.

  That being said lets not forget how we start out each shoot, we have a briefing and one of the first things is " All SASS RULES APPLY" meaning all of the targets should be within the distances prescribed in the SASS booklet and should be of the size also prescribed in the SASS rule book.  Both of these things is what I think keeps the veteran  shooters coming back and the new shooters from becoming disgruntled and maybe never coming back. Ok so that might be 3 cents worth,,,,,, sorry.

Edited by Lawman Wolf, 10 May 2006 - 11:18 PM.

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#4 Longtooth

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:39 AM

I'll give you my 4 cents worth. I think that the targets should be hittable for the average shooter. The atmosphere friendly with no hidden ajendas. Good weather and good food.
In my opinion that's what will keep the participants coming back. As long as the gas prices doesn't curtail some of them. In closing I quess i shouldn't have started the 4 again.

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#5 Turkey Legs

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 05:18 AM

Everytime I read this man's articules I eventually come away disgruntled. He starts off with some good suggestions then turns it into a slam against certain shooters. Whats this about the "wimp" loads - to me it dosen't matter how your shells are loaded if ya don't practice ya don't hit nothin.  I do agree with whats been said by Ugly - Lawman and Longtooth, keep the targets within the size and distance already put in the rules and just rewrite your stages for a little variety - if we don't the new shooters and older ones will become discouraged and never come back. For aren't we in it for the FUN - FOOD - and COMPAIONSHIP!

Ok - better get down off the wagon!    :blush:

TL
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#6 dd

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 06:14 AM

This subject sure does stir up the conversation! My point in starting this topic was to get an idea of what folks were looking for in a "good" shoot and to guide us in setting up future stages.

The SASS rules/guidelines on target placement are fairly liberal and leave a lot of room for creativity. As an example at the Montana State match last spring, they had the standard "cowboy" targets out at 50 yards for rifle targets - all within SASS rules. But the high grass came above the cowboy's belly button! You had to aim into the grass to hit the middle of the target (especially for those of us who are vertically challenged). SASS legal but not good.

It seems as if the recent equipment rules and Tex's commentary might be signaling a shift of thinking in SASS away from the "quick and dirty" stages and the "race gun".

Keep the comments coming - we want to hear what you think about this subject!

:yahoo:  :yahoo:
~dd~

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#7 Tallwater Mat

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:08 AM

My only suggestion for this is "BRING BACK KOCHEESE'S SQAWKING CHICKENS". Sometimes these little oddities make it so enjoyable it doesn't matter if targets are near or far. Just LAUGH AND SHOOT!

#8 jeweler jim

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:17 AM

The Cowboy Chronicle is a nice monthly distraction and read.  Beyond that if it ain't my personal ox that's being gored I don't respond.  I'm happy with the way things have been laid out for our shoots at the Kanyon and believe that if anyone has any ideas or input, that Grit, Wolf & Dice are more than willing to try and accommodate.  Also believe that a few people noticed that perhaps the targets on the speed stage got moved back a little.  One has to remember that my comments come from someone who will never be compitetive, just there to have fun and know that my scores will probably never break into the top third of the shoot.
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#9 charles_goodnight

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 09:29 AM

Well I for one think that a single action can shoot and hit targets at more the 7 yards, and a lever action rifle is good for more than 20 yards.  I do like a smaller, further away targets,  make you think kind of stage design.  That was what so fun about going to the matches at Kocheese's in the past years.    I like stages that have silly props, stick horses,  noisy chickens, open ranges, non-standard targets ( the buffalo at 70 yards), lets put the fun back in shooting, and not just make it a speed race.

Goodnight

#10 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:14 PM

View PostTurkey Legs, on May 11 2006, 04:18 AM, said:

Everytime I read this man's articules I eventually come away disgruntled. He starts off with some good suggestions then turns it into a slam against certain shooters. Whats this about the "wimp" loads - to me it dosen't matter how your shells are loaded if ya don't practice ya don't hit nothin.  I do agree with whats been said by Ugly - Lawman and Longtooth, keep the targets within the size and distance already put in the rules and just rewrite your stages for a little variety - if we don't the new shooters and older ones will become discouraged and never come back. For aren't we in it for the FUN - FOOD - and COMPAIONSHIP!

Ok - better get down off the wagon!    :blush:

TL

Aw, come on Turkey Legs -- we all know you are a wimp and shoot wimp loads.  We can stand behind you and watch the lead come out of the barrel and barely bounce off the target.  Frankly, I am surprised your lead has enough muster to even get to the targets, regardless how close or far.  Using the powder normally used in a .22 long rifle for your SASS guns is your perogative.  I personally do not care.

I just think razzing you whenever I can, like now, is so much fun.  Like this note - do not take one word seriously except for the part where I state how much I enjoy giving you a hard time.........   :devil:

And, yes, for Pete's sake - get off the wagon.  Blush?  When have you ever blushed?  Anyone who allows tp to hang from their pants isn't probably too prone to blushing............
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#11 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:31 PM

Having only been in this sport for 3 years, my opinions don't carry much weight.  However, I come to as many shoots as I can because I like hearing the clang of lead on steel.  When I miss with my handguns, as I am prone far too often to do, I do get very discouraged.  When the targets are small and/or too far away, for my skill level, like they seem to be at Oconomowoc, I get frustrated.  I will not slick up my guns nor will I download my shells.  I like the feel of the kick my .45's make and am not interested in being at the top of my category.  But, I can tell you, I have never enjoyed a group of people more   than those I have had the pleasure to meet through SASS.  And, I thoroughly enjoy each and every shoot I attend, regardless of my frustrations.  I do concur, that if we make the targets smaller and further away, there will be a dropout in attendance. I believe that most shooters come so they can have fun, hit the targets, go as fast or slow as they want, enjoy the commaradarie, eat good food, and just practice the cowboy way/spirit of the game to their best ability.  I also believe that those who are intent on winning at any cost should have their own category.

I like the stages that aren't the same old same old.  Shoot one handgun; then pick up the rifle; then shoot a couple of shotgun poppers; squeeze a chicken or two; then use the other handgun, and finish with a couple more shotgun poppers.  Now, that is fun.  There's my $5 of worthless opinion.........

Edited by Muddy Gap Shootist, 11 May 2006 - 04:32 PM.

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#12 Lawman Wolf

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:45 PM

(The SASS rules/guidelines on target placement are fairly liberal and leave a lot of room for creativity. As an example at the Montana State match last spring, they had the standard "cowboy" targets out at 50 yards for rifle targets - all within SASS rules. But the high grass came above the cowboy's belly button! You had to aim into the grass to hit the middle of the target (especially for those of us who are vertically challenged.



Thats what I would call poor stage design and unsafe as you do not really know what may be in the high grass.

Edited by Lawman Wolf, 11 May 2006 - 04:56 PM.

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#13 dd

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 05:49 PM

View PostLawman Wolf, on May 11 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

(The SASS rules/guidelines on target placement are fairly liberal and leave a lot of room for creativity. As an example at the Montana State match last spring, they had the standard "cowboy" targets out at 50 yards for rifle targets - all within SASS rules. But the high grass came above the cowboy's belly button! You had to aim into the grass to hit the middle of the target (especially for those of us who are vertically challenged.
Thats what I would call poor stage design and unsafe as you do not really know what may be in the high grass.

Yes, very poor stage design (there were other ones there, too), but I use it as an example that following SASS guidelines doesn't necessarily produce a good or safe stage.
~dd~

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#14 Push the Button Wyatt

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 06:26 PM

ahhh yes,the Cowboy Chronicle,I read it every month,cover to cover,hey ,It's part of what we do.When I was a little squirt,many years ago,there were 3 things in my life that were important to me,one was my teddy bear,I draged him around every place I went(of course being only4 years old I didn't go very far)I have an old photo of he and I taking a nap,looking at it up close I can see he was so worn out he onlly had one arm left.When I got older,say 9,I had my toy soldiers(they cost 10 cents then,now ther $25 to$80)years latter,now I'm 10,I discovered Cowboys and indians,Girls came much latter!!! Well Teddy's gone,I have a few toy soldiers left,but I can only play with those when I'm home alone,but by God I still play cowboy& indians,i'ts even more fun now because ,yes,we got Girls also.So whimp loads or canon,if I get in a tough spot I'l toss my knife up in the air 3 times and hope some one comes to help?Lets get on with the games.Once not long ago I saw "Dry Fire" at a match,because of an operation had he couldn'd use his shotgun,so when he got to the knock down targets he picked up his shotgun,pointed it at the targets and said loudly"BANG" BANG",now that dear friends is truly playing "The spirit of the Game",let the fun begin,  P T B Wyatt :yahoo:  :yahoo:  :yahoo:  Love ya ALL

#15 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 07:46 AM

View PostPush the button Wyatt, on May 11 2006, 05:26 PM, said:

ahhh yes,the Cowboy Chronicle,I read it every month,cover to cover,hey ,It's part of what we do.When I was a little squirt,many years ago,there were 3 things in my life that were important to me,one was my teddy bear,I draged him around every place I went(of course being only4 years old I didn't go very far)I have an old photo of he and I taking a nap,looking at it up close I can see he was so worn out he onlly had one arm left.When I got older,say 9,I had my toy soldiers(they cost 10 cents then,now ther $25 to$80)years latter,now I'm 10,I discovered Cowboys and indians,Girls came much latter!!! Well Teddy's gone,I have a few toy soldiers left,but I can only play with those when I'm home alone,but by God I still play cowboy& indians,i'ts even more fun now because ,yes,we got Girls also.So whimp loads or canon,if I get in a tough spot I'l toss my knife up in the air 3 times and hope some one comes to help?Lets get on with the games.Once not long ago I saw "Dry Fire" at a match,because of an operation had he couldn'd use his shotgun,so when he got to the knock down targets he picked up his shotgun,pointed it at the targets and said loudly"BANG" BANG",now that dear friends is truly playing "The spirit of the Game",let the fun begin,  P T B Wyatt :yahoo:  :yahoo:  :yahoo:  Love ya ALL

Now that is putting everything into its proper perspective!  Way to go Wyatt.  Your message made me smile and remember........   :thumbsup:
"Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked across your grave..."

"... I'm afraid the strain was just too much for him to bare..."

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#16 Dastardly Dan

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:01 AM

View PostMuddy Gap Shootist, on May 11 2006, 05:14 PM, said:

Aw, come on Turkey Legs -- we all know you are a wimp and shoot wimp loads.  We can stand behind you and watch the lead come out of the barrel and barely bounce off the target.  Frankly, I am surprised your lead has enough muster to even get to the targets, regardless how close or far.  Using the powder normally used in a .22 long rifle for your SASS guns is your perogative.  I personally do not care.

I just think razzing you whenever I can, like now, is so much fun.  Like this note - do not take one word seriously except for the part where I state how much I enjoy giving you a hard time.........   :devil:

And, yes, for Pete's sake - get off the wagon.  Blush?  When have you ever blushed?  Anyone who allows tp to hang from their pants isn't probably too prone to blushing............

JEEZ!!!  I just hid my new .32 rifle in the back of the safe!!!

Edited by Dastardly Dan, 12 May 2006 - 09:01 AM.

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#17 Ugly

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:30 AM

Now why did you do that Dan?  That rifle ought to be miss free now; I got all the misses out of it at the last match.
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#18 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 10:30 AM

View PostDastardly Dan, on May 12 2006, 08:01 AM, said:

JEEZ!!!  I just hid my new .32 rifle in the back of the safe!!!

As you should have!  Anyone who does not shoot the .45 Colt with at least 6.5 grains of W231 is a wimp and not a real cowboy...........   :devil:  :devil:

Seriously, I would love to see your .32.  Maybe if you can bring it to Kocheese Kanyon on the 21st I can get a look at it........  Please oh please.   Maybe even let me throw a couple down range with it...?
"Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked across your grave..."

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#19 Big Grit

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:15 PM

I have to agree with Charles Goodnight on stage design, silly props,etc. the last match I shot [Beloit], I missed 4 of 5 shots with my 1st pistol. Was that their fault because the targets weren't 48" X 48" three yards away? NO I COULD OF AIMED. Supposedly we need BIG targets very close to attract new shooters and keep experienced ones coming back. A clean match should be earned through extra effort, not just automatic. Iv'e talked to some newer shooters and they didn't have a problem with most targets or the distance they were shot at.Their biggest concern was complicated stage writeups. I have to agree with Tex SASS #4 that the "trend" of close big targets got out of hand.Now some more experienced shooters think it is the fault of the stage design if they don't shoot a clean match. Go back to basics, slow down enough to shoot within what a stage allows you to do. By the way, although I had a few more misses and a procedural, I had a GREAT time do to the comraderie of the posse I shot with. I'll also bet I won just as much money as whomever came in first! Thanks for providing the forum for these discussions,Big Grit

#20 dd

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:32 PM

And you stole all my brass, too!!

:w00t:  :w00t:
~dd~

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#21 Turkey Legs

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:43 PM

Ok Muddy Gap Shootist I do blush and as I have heard many times I blush rather nicely!!!!! You may also have me mixed up with Dry Fire on watching those loads go down range - I think his are even slower than mine.  And hey thanks for the kind words Push the Button - say where have ya been - I sure have missed ya at the shoots  :thumbsup:   As far as target design I do agree with what has been written - don't place all the targets in a row b/c this gets boring - but place them out at odd heights and provide us with some cool senarios that allow us to be a kid again - though don't make Big Grit wear a dress and bonnet b/c I've seen this picture  :whistling:

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#22 dd

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 05:02 PM

Yes, it is disgusting, isn't it?   :sickup:  :sickup:

Posted Image
~dd~

Posted Image

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#23 Push the Button Wyatt

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 06:54 PM

Hey Muddy,bet you were thinking about all them girls in your past huh,you ole :devil: Hey "Legs" I missed you also,but lets keep it our secret(in other words don't tell "Dry Fire")(or my wife!!!)all kidding aside I'm doing fine,hope to run into you at a shoot soon,take care.  Wyatt :thumbsup:

#24 Big Grit

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:16 PM

Be glad I had the dress& bonnet, I looked much worse in a camisole and bloomers! Big Grit

#25 dd

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:42 PM

View PostBig Grit, on May 12 2006, 10:16 PM, said:

Be glad I had the dress& bonnet, I looked much worse in a camisole and bloomers! Big Grit

That's really more than I want to know but at least it would be period correct!  :sickup:  :sickup:
~dd~

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#26 Dastardly Dan

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 08:43 AM

View PostMuddy Gap Shootist, on May 12 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

As you should have!  Anyone who does not shoot the .45 Colt with at least 6.5 grains of W231 is a wimp and not a real cowboy...........   :devil:  :devil:

Seriously, I would love to see your .32.  Maybe if you can bring it to Kocheese Kanyon on the 21st I can get a look at it........  Please oh please.   Maybe even let me throw a couple down range with it...?

I've got 45s and 38s and 32s in rifles and pistols.  The 32 pistols and the 45 pistols both got new stag grips with that last dash to Eagle Grips so I can't wait to flash the 45 around.  I will probably bring the 32 rifle because I think it is the best shooting gun I own.  The stroke is short right out of the box and Huck did a nice job of slickin it up.[size=3] :w00t:
The marbles run out faster as you get older so HURRY UP AND GIT ER DONE!!

#27 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 05:26 PM

View PostDastardly Dan, on May 13 2006, 07:43 AM, said:

I've got 45s and 38s and 32s in rifles and pistols.  The 32 pistols and the 45 pistols both got new stag grips with that last dash to Eagle Grips so I can't wait to flash the 45 around.  I will probably bring the 32 rifle because I think it is the best shooting gun I own.  The stroke is short right out of the box and Huck did a nice job of slickin it up.[size=3] :w00t:


Sounds nice.  Very very nice!  Can't wait to see your outfit........   :thumbsup:
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#28 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 05:28 PM

View Postdd, on May 12 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

Yes, it is disgusting, isn't it?   :sickup:  :sickup:

Posted Image


Heavens to Betsy!!  What is that?!  Did old west prairie women really look THAT bad?!
"Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked across your grave..."

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#29 Ugly

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 05:53 PM

View PostMuddy Gap Shootist, on May 13 2006, 04:28 PM, said:

Heavens to Betsy!!  What is that?!  Did old west prairie women really look THAT bad?!


Unfortunaltly, after a long time out on the prairie, that probably looked good to a lot of the cowboys.
Posted Image
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#30 dd

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 06:47 PM

View PostUgly, on May 13 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Unfortunaltly, after a long time out on the prairie, that probably looked good to a lot of the cowboys.

Maybe to the sheep herders on Pokeback mountain!
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#31 Muddy Gap Shootist

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 08:42 PM

View Postdd, on May 12 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

Yes, it is disgusting, isn't it?   :sickup:  :sickup:

Posted Image


Grit, I just gots to know -- how much were you paid to dress like that?  Or is that your normal attire on the weekends when there isn't a SASS shoot?  Seriously, what the heck was the occasion?    :blink:
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#32 dd

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:45 PM

He only wears the pink, feathered tutu on Valentine's Day. But I can understand why he won't let me take any photos of him in it!  :sickup:  :sickup:
~dd~

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#33 Big Grit

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 06:15 AM

You guys are just jealous cuz I looked so purdy! Grit

#34 Devereaux

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 04:27 PM

Purdy wouldn't be the word I would choose. And "camisole and bloomers" is clearly a frightening concept!

Let's remember that it used to be "out West, where the men are men, and the women are ... men also." They wore leather underwear, didn't they?
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#35 Devereaux

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 04:45 PM

Let's all remember that this is a game. And in the gaming lessons from IPSC, there were two kinds of scenerios - the speed shoot (Cooper's El Capitan) and the A-zone shoot. You decided which a particular stage was by how long it took to shoot and how many shots there were. The longer and more shots, the more it was an A-zone shoot, where being accurate counted more than a couple hundreths of a second. The shorter the stage, the more it was a run-and-gun.

Personally, I believe that people kind of like a little of both. Stages shouldn't be so hard that you have to have a pre-test to see if you grasped how to shoot it, nor so easy that a blind, one-armed Arapahoe can shoot it clean and quick. Setting the speed stage targets a little further back was a good idea - it is STILL the speed stage, just a little more concentration. I think one stage of more complexity would work well, something to make you think a little. Variety of location, without compromising things like riccochets is very helpful, but there are clearly location limitations. Excess movement or wierd shooting positions are more the IPSC style than cowboy.

Like Grizzley, I shoot .45's with 5.8 gr of Titegroup. I like the bounce. But lest we forget, one of the all-time greatest gunfighters was Wild Bill Hickock, and he shot '51 Navy .36's - and he didn't even raise them to aim but shot from the hip! We don' 'low dat in SASS! If I recollect my TV right, Yancy Derringer carried a passle of pimp guns and managed to thwart the bad guy every week. So to each his own. Nice to be able to accomodate everyone's desires. ?Anyone think we ought to break out scoring by calibre. ?How about "power factor". ?How about shooting style (well, we actually DO that with the different classes that we shoot!)

Ugly said it at the beginning to this ramble - no matter how we slice the pie, the fast guys will always be the fast guys, and the slow guys will stay slow without major investment of time and practice, regardless of calibre and shooting style.
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