Attention all SASS Shooters!

jeweler jim

<div class="IPBDescription">"Cone of Safety Video"</div>I'm asking everyone to go the address below to watch the two videos (about eighteen minutes) and then come back to read my reply below after so that I may not prejudice you in regard to it. <br />
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http://www.sassnet.com/sass_news_article.p...le-of-Safety-37<br />
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You will then hopefully be better able to make comment as to how you want your TG's to vote at the summit in December. <br />
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jeweler jim

Okay, if my very tiny little brain understands this cone thing, one of the main reasons (see excuses) for it is that the TOs are not calling the 170 rule properly and some are being penalized and others not when in both cases it is sometimes wrong.<br />
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So with the new cone of safety the TOs are now going to do a better job and have to be sure to stand outside the thing so they dont get swept and this will be easier. <br />
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And now everyone will be allowed to run around while holstering and drawing with muzzles pointed back towards the spotters and posse? Yes sir them gamers will gain close to a second or two on every stage. Or do I misunderstand this thing. <br />
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For myself and depending on who the shooter is I sometimes crowd a little in case I might have to grab for a gun that aint going in the holster. There are other times and reasons that my feet might be closer than the two feet area around the backwards pointed muzzle. I could go on, but I thinking there a number of us timing now that arent gonna be happy with trying to time a shooter under this one. Not to mention are the spotters going to do a better job under this system? <br />
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I could go on and on, but for those of you who were at the Beloit shoot last week end and heard Dice make his comments; Im in total agreement with him on this one. Wanted to wait until they posted the video before I posted anything, but it took everything in me to watch both all the way through. <br />
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Okay cowboys and cowgirls lets pretend that you read the rest of my 30 minute tirade thats going on inside my head and give me your comments. I will vote the way the posse wants, but I think you know where I come down on this one. <br />
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I'm seeing green on this one <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bad:' /> <br />

Wrangler Rich

<img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon12.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':flag:' /> <br />
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The commitee is really not going to like my vote.<br />
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Still NO!!

StoneyMike

Jim, First let me say that I am against this rule and have been since it's inception. After watching the videos I'm baffled by something. They say that right now the fact that straight hang holster have more leeway with the 170 rule is a problem, and to rectify this they give all holsters the same leeway? And this makes us safer how? Solving a problem by making it available for all is NOT the answer.<br />
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Jim you say that "Gamers" are for it. I Really hate that term. I do my very best to do well at the shoots I go to. As I'm sure most do also. Does that make me or Sleepy gamers? Maybe, but in many conversations the term gamer has a "cheater" connotation to it. Which I don't think is fair. Just because people who win matches or do well, does not mean they will resort to cheating to win. I shoot within the rules. I have one of the most exaggerated cross draw dances you will every see. Just for the reason that I want there to be absolutely no question about it I don't feel that my competitors are cheaters and I really hope people don't feel that way about me.<br />
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Now on with the show.<br />
Mike

Ugly

I vote a big NO for this proposal for reasons too numerous to mention here.

Rio Jack

After watching the video explanations of the Circle Of Safty, the ultimate logic left me at a loss for words. I don't see any improvement and it only adds to the confusment of interpitation.<br />
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I still am against this proposed rule. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/disgust.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':disgust:' />

dd

<img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' />

jeweler jim

Mike, <br />
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I mean no disrespect with the "Gamer" thing.<br />
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For me there are two (one positive and one negative) definitions of a gamer:<br />
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1. A shooter who practices and puts in considerable amount of time and effort to improving his game to the best he can be and is concerned with winning, but would never cheat, take advantage and in fact will point out to other shooters how they might improve their game. (To be respected for all they contribute)<br />
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2. The cheater connotation that you mentioned. I had a longer drawn out definition here, but it ain't necessary.<br />
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In my idea about one of the reasons why this thing got started is the fact that it will allow the ones who are overly concerned with winning to have very little concern for muzzle control regardless of the type of holster they wear. It will allow holstering and drawing in a 360 degree radius as long as you supposedly don't extend the angle of the gun past the two foot edge of the cone. That can possibly give some of these shooters a chance to shave a second or faction there of off each stage. I don't want to take off here on a rant, but this thing is bovine excrement. <br />

Pair-A-Dice

It was NO 8 or 9 years ago when this first came up.......and it is NO now! And by the way, I think I still have my wooden "protractor" to measure 30 degree holsters if you want me to drag that to safety briefings!<br />
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By the way did I mention the answer is still NO!<br />
Dice <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbdown:' />

StoneyMike

Jim, we're cool, I took no offense. I do hope I fit #1 though, I do try to fit that mold because it's what make s the sport fun for me, and hopefully the shooters around me agree.<br />
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Did I mention I still don't like the rule and will not vote for it?

Grizzly Clark

Howdy all,<br />
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My vote would be a resounding NO. I see no positive need for a rule like this.<br />
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Griz

Filthy Harry

As you Illinois residents say, "no freaking cone".

Muddy Gap Shootist

I think making new rules like this only add to taking the fun out of the game. We need to make interpretation of the rules as simple as possible. If Dice needs to bring his protracter to measure angle of holsters, etc., then it is getting too complex. I am still a GGP member and I vote NO.

Push the Button Wyatt

I have no idea what you are talking about and i vote no. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' />

jeweler jim

Stolen from the SASS Wire and is not the entire post, but it might be considered instructional...<br />
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Sorry; I have to revert to my own field of experience. Worst case scenario - spectator is shot and wounded in the leg by an uprange accidental discharge at a match during which the cone is in approved use; he sues the range, the shooter, the club, the MD, the RO and SASS. The shooter is on the witness stand.<br />
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ATTY: Was your gun pointed uprange when you fired?<br />
Shooter: I guess it was; to hit someone behind me, it had to be.<br />
ATTY: Isn't pointing a loaded weapon uprange a violation of the safety rules of the club and of SASS?<br />
Shooter: Well, not really. If I was angled but within the Cone, it was legal.<br />
ATTY: Wait a minute...are you telling me that your club and SASS specifically authorized you to angle the muzzle of your loaded gun backwards, in a direction away from the targets and toward the crowd?<br />
Shooter: That's what the rules say - as long as the angle does not exceed the limits of an imaginary 4' circle on the ground.<br />
ATTY: So you were allowed to point your loaded weapon at an angle, behind you, within the rules?<br />
Shooter: Yes.<br />
ATTY: But you were supposed to keep it within this imaginary "cone"?<br />
Shooter: Yeah, and I thought I did....<br />
Atty.: Could you see behind you when you did this?<br />
Shooter: Well, no; I was looking downrange at the targets...<br />
ATTY: And there was no mechanism in place to alert you immediately if the rearward angle of your muzzle exceeded this imaginary cone?<br />
Shooter: Well, no...I mean yes - the TO or the RO are supposed to give me a penalty or disqualification if I exceed the cone.<br />
ATTY" But neither of them did in this case, did they?<br />
Shooter: Well, sometimes it happens so fast...<br />
ATTY: But under the rules, it's their job, isn't it?<br />
Shooter: Yes.<br />
ATTY: And that's for safety, isn't it? To protect people like spectators behind the shooter, right?<br />
Shooter: Yes.<br />
ATTY: And if they did their jobs, this shooting never would have happened, would it?<br />
Shooter: I guess not...<br />
ATTY: So, again under the rules, and under the direct supervison of these two safety officers, you were allowed to point your loaded gun uprange, without looking at the gun, the angle of the gun, or the position of spectators behnd you ?<br />
Shooter: Spectators aren't supposed to be that close...<br />
ATTY: But you didn't know where they were, did you? Because you were not looking where you were pointing the gun, were you?<br />
Shooter: Well, no, but....<br />
ATTY: And when you pulled the trigger, were you looking where your gun was pointed?<br />
Shooter: No...it was an accidental discharge...I didn't mean for it to go off...<br />
ATTY: "Accidental"???? You were holding a loaded gun, and to go off, you had to have cocked it and pulled the trigger - right? What's "accidental" about that?<br />
Shooter: Look, it can get confusing up there....<br />
ATTY: Confused? Are you now telling us that you were confused? That you didn't know what you were doing? That you didn't know where the spectators were, where your gun was aimed, or that it was cocked? Wasn't there anyone on this range responsible for safety? Wasn't there anyone who's job it was to help you if you got confused? <br />
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You can see where this is going....<br />
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The Cone, the 170, the crossdraw, the staright drop, they all deserve straightforward discussion. But when it is all over, I intend to do everything that I reasonably can, including observing the 170, using holsters that help me maintain a downrange attitude, and trying to keep my mind on what I'm doing and when. <br />
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The issue is NOT how often ADs occur; it's just that they can, and they do. And when they do, you do not want to have to justify, to yourself or to a jury, why your muzzle was pointed uprange.

dd

AMEN!!

jeweler jim

If ya missed the newest thread that I threw up here go to...<br />
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http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6741<br />
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It's about doing the "Hokey Pokey" Where you put the right foot in and get a toe shot off.